Great
This video SURGE XT THE MOVIE : Amazing FREE Synthesizer - Full In-Depth Tutorial - YouTube is a pretty comprehensive overview of xt 1.0. 1.1 (currently in beta) adds a bunch of new things but not in the dsp layer.
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Thanks - the video is super helpful.
I had a quick scan through the oscillator sections and I see what you mean now about all the dynamic label changes as the oscillator model changes.
So as you said, the initial question is whether we want to follow the existing surge paradigm - ie. make the Rack version as close to the existing VST version as possible, which would mean a multi oscillator with dynamic labelling, or follow a more modular paradigm, which involves splitting the different models out into separate modules which would then avoid the need for dynamic labelling.
I can potentially see arguments for both. There’s something to be said for keeping the user experience as familiar as possible to the VST experience for those moving between the two. And dynamic labelling is not a completely foreign concept in Rack - see Atelier Palette for example. Of course there are also good arguments for splitting them up into separate modules, Rack being a modular environment.
But what it might actually come down to in the end, like most things in Rack, is CPU consumption. A multi oscillator set to String for example would probably use significantly more CPU than a single string oscillator would it not? (due to all the extra code needed for the multi oscillator?). If so then that in itself is a very strong reason to split them up and may make all other considerations moot.
The multi-oscillator overhead is basically 0. The only cost it brings is when you switch oscillator types we tear down the oscillators. The multi-oscillator only runs one oscillator class at a time.
From looking a bit at rack it seems 'lots of little modules" is more the style than “big multi-modules”. But its a lot more lift also from a design perspective. I did the FX this way though (and have a ‘generic’ screen which is the screen most of the FX have). I wonder if a generic OSC screen with a couple of customs would be smart?
I’m also curious how to deal with the filters. I really don’t think we want 800 modules (one for each type/subtype combo). So the filter will be multi-modal somehow. I think a design for that (currently non-existent) module which replicates this part of the Surge UI would be instructive for me.
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Yes this is true - but that’s because most Rack modules are based around fairly simple hardware module designs. Whereas Surge is a modern and complex digital plugin.
It might be worth taking a look at our Mindmeld MixMaster/AuxSpander and ShapeMaster modules - these are some of the most complex and feature rich modules in rack. MixMaster includes pretty much all the features you would find in a high end 16 track, 4 group bus, 4 aux bus hardware studio mixing desk and packs them all down into a ‘small’ Rack module while still keeping things simple, intuitive and uncluttered.
It was my experience with VST’s like ShaperBox, LFO Tool and GateKeeper that made me want to create ShapeMaster for Rack and it probably does more than any of those tools in terms of features - again while keeping the interface pretty intuitive and uncluttered.
Point being, it might be worth taking a look at these as ShapeMaster in particular is more ‘VST-like’ than most other modules in Rack and probably therefore has more in common with Surge than with traditional Rack modules. When you want to squeeze a lot of features/controls/options into a relatively small rack module, as is necessary for surge, then the key is layering the interface - deciding what goes directly on the front panel and what goes in menus.
I don’t for example see any problem, should you wish to do so, in using drop down menus to select filter types and sub types, as long as the main filter module itself looks something like a Eurorack filter. For another way of dealing with many filter types and sub types, check out Vult Freak (although it’s a commercial module)
On the Oscillators, can we have a waveform display window like you do in the plugin? that would be very cool.
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Hey! Thanks for your great work! the surge modules are incredible!
I’d be happy to offer my help on design 
We can talk by message
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I like the current design of the Surge Modules.
Prefer to have everything accessible on the panel - no right click menus, thank you. Can’t OSC map them. ((OSCelot, cvOSCcv) I play with Rack interfaces on commandline, raspberry pi pico hardware or multitouch tablets, using TouchOSC and/or OpenStageControl and MIDI mapping (1)))
You could take inspiration from Vult modules matrix displays if you feel you want change. (displays don’t work well for “headless” rack’ing - but who uses that anyway).
Pyer and I have agreed to collaborate on the redesign. Seems like the perfect opportunity to put our heads together and see what we can come up with!
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Yep - that effectively works similar to a dropdown menu. Clicking through lots of options with a button is not as quick as jumping straight to the option you want in a menu, but I can see the advantage of having it accessible to OSC/mapping etc.
We’ll have to see what works best once we get stuck into it. A neat little trick we found for mapping the track filters on MixMaster (which are in menus) was to use the little LED that shows the filter is active as a mapping target - where there’s a will there’s a way!
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That can only mean really good things 
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yes, the mantra: " VCV Rack, the open-source Eurorack modular synthesizer simulator for Windows/Mac/Linux."
May not mean much, considering the amount of microcontroller modules in eurorack. ( I recently built some Ornament and Crime modules, still learning to navigate 1, 2, 3 )
Ornament and Crime is a beast - I’ve got one in my hardware rack. Currently have it loaded with the alternative Hemispheres firmware.
I built five
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Oh wow - planning on keeping them all? or selling some to pay for yours?
3 run squares and circles 0.0.2k (Teensy4)
1 run Ornament & Crime v1.3 (Teensy3.2)
1 run hemispheres.(Teensy3.2)
I’m keeping all of them.
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Though I like this solution, I often find myself running out of mod inputs (esp with Trummor2) so have to resort to Stoermelder CV-MAP. Also, randomising Vult modules with mod routers using Stoermelder Strip is useless as everything gets remapped, Strip exclusion doesn’t work on the mod router buttons, so once more it’s CV-MAP time.
As for menus, I often find things I’d like to be able to control by CV but can’t, so please, if deciding on menus, give strong consideration to anything that people might want to have CV control over and try to accommodate that, perhaps with an expander module with additional CV inputs to access things hidden in menus.
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Absolutely. Just as an example of something I imagine might go in a menu, would be the ‘extend’ function. On the Oscillator for example, the pitch slider ranges by default from -7 semitones to +7. There’s also separate octave control from -3 to +3. You can then turn on ‘extend’ to give the Pitch slider much greater range. This seems like a set and forget control based on your use case rather than something you’d likely want to modulate as you go.
It could also perhaps be a button on the panel - but panel space is always going to be limited (particularly with a synth like this with all its various models and options) so we will just have to see but inevitably some compromises will need to be made in order to keep the clutter and ‘busyness’ under control.
The bottom line is that whilst the tech and DSP in the surge modules is exceptional, the design currently puts many people off I think - they certainly are not getting the use they should. So I’d like to make the interface look much more ‘familiar’ to rack users and also to simplify it - currently the interface is cluttered with stuff that’s not really important. Once that’s taken care of we make them look beautiful too and job done.
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some of the menu-diving things could be done in an expander for sure without too much further hassle, and hence mappable?
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Really looking forward to whatever you come up with, if I were giving out medals for UI design, MindMeld would get Gold.
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Yeah but they don’t really deal with menu-diving stuff - one adds a load of CV inputs and the other adds a load of trigger outputs. ShapeMaster has loads of menus haha.
Anyway we’ll just have to see what works best once we get stuck into it. Menus will be kept to a minimum but like any other interface element, they have their place.
I can’t imagine what MixMaster or ShapeMaster would look like without menus - yikes!
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yeah, just doublechecked my sometimes skippy mind and true, but still, maybe the mappable menu-diving expander idea might have some legs?