VCV in Ableton with ES9

VCV Rack
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I cannot get this working. I am using a MacBook and the vst3 of vcv rack 2 pro in ableton. Using an Audio 16 module, where the in and out source is DAW, I cannot send and receive anything. If I swap DAW to ES9 in the audio source, it doesn’t work and what’s more the incoming audio to the Es9 in my other ableton channels stops as well. If I use the standalone VCV rack app alongside ableton, with the audio16 module source = es9, it works but then I’m not recording the vcv rack. I’m clearly misconfiguring something (maybe the es9 config tool has the answer or the in/out ableton config) it I can’t work it out! If anyone has this config please share the secret. It’s really hard to explain, I’ll load up some videos and share the links here as well.

Edit Here’s the link to the issue:

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I don’t have an ES9, but I use a Percussa SSP in the same/similar way.

(Percussa SSP is a 16x16 usb audio interface)

assuming your ES9 is working with VCV standalone correctly, then its safe to say, its not an ES9 issue. (the ES9 is just an audio interface as far as macOS is concerned)

really the main question here is… how are you getting audio out to your speakers/headphones?

there are two ways…

DAW → VCV Rack vst → ES9 → output module → speakers/headphones

so here the modular is used as the final output stage.

in this scenario… Ableton audio preferences , set to ES9 in VCV Rack 2 VST/AU , audio device use DAW as audio source/destination (then just remember to arm your tracks in ableton)

however the more common use-case, is where you want to use a second audio interface to connect to speakers/headphones , and just use ES9 to interface to your rack

e.g.

DAW ↔ main audio interface → speakers/other synths etc.

DAW ↔ VCV vst → ES9 → eurorack modules

theres a couple of ways to do this.

a) direct connection Ableton - set to your main audio interface VCV Rack vcv2 → audio device 1 , set to ES9 , audio device 2, set to DAW

so here, when you want to send/receive audio to eurorack you use the audio device 1. but you then need to return some audio back to the daw and so you use audio device 2.

b) aggregate audio device macOS allows us to create aggregate audio devices, so we basically see multiple audio interfaces as ONE. e.g. your main audio interface may be channel 1-8, then ES8 9-16.

you can do this via the audio/midi setup tool, however, I prefer to use Rogue Amoeba Loopback as its more flexible. there is also a free alternative called Blackhole.

note: Ive never used Blackhole, as I bought loopback before it existed. and frankly, Loopback is excellent, well worth the $… but try Blackhole first :slight_smile:

unfortunately, without know your exact setup… and use-case I cannot really say what your issue is, but hopefully the above has the info you need.

I will say, personally, I use the aggregate w/ loopback mostly, as it’s easier in my setup… but all of the above work fine.

1 Like
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Thank you so much for taking the time to go through this, really detailed - once I’m front of the rig again later I’ll go through your response step by step. I agree it’s not the ES9. The aggregate idea is a good one for sure. I since added a video link to the original post so if you wanted to view the use case in detail you can. Thanks again, I’ll let you know how I get on!

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yeah, hopefully the above should help you.

however, I think I understand your confusion now :slight_smile:

when you use audio device 16, and it set to DAW. this does NOT mean use the audio device of your DAW !

it means use the TRACK IO this is why it defaults to the standard Audio Device (2/2), since this is a stereo pair as used by ableton audio/midi tracks.

(i.e. think about a synth vst on an ableton track, where does the audio go… to the track output ,possible via fx, then finally to, by default, main)

ok, the next bit is just ‘for the interested’ … you can skip if you want :wink:

so IF you use Audio Device 16, and you send to output 9 where does this go? how do you get to it? well, it wont be on the track… as thats only stereo so lets say Track 1 : VCV Rack VST → with audio device 16, output sine to output 9!

we would need to create a new ableton audio track Track 2: input = Track 1, Channel 9/10 ! viola we have the sine wave.

this is useful if your VCV rack patch has multi channel output.

anyway, give it a go… let me know how you get on…

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thanks again for the write up - I think I am following some of this, but I’m still a bit lost. To the point where I am considering using vcv rack in standalone mode so I can take advantage of 8 channel outputs of cv from vcv to hardware, and then record the output of the hardware in the DAW, not using the vst at all. feels a bit disconnected but I know it works and doesn’t make my brain hurt. I will try the aggregate thing when i get more time - maybe thats the ticket here to essentially separate the same audio device into 2, and dedicate certain I/O on the ES9 to each audio device - 1 that is for the DAW, and one that is for the DAW plugin audio device - if I’m following your feedback that might work…

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yeah, I think it sounds complicated when discussed in isolation from a real world example. this is partly because there are a couple of ways for this to work. frankly, you can probably use any of the above, and get it to work, but some approaches have benefits/shortfalls in some circumstances.

tl;dr; perhaps I should have provided ONE way to make it work, rather than flood with alternatives :laughing: but in fairness, Im not 100% certain of your setup, and also what you are trying to achieve.

let me do a solid example, using ONE example… see if this helps…

but first… one suggestion. IF you want to use VCV standalone, have a look at blackhole/loopback as per my first post. these can route audio from a standalone app into your DAW :slight_smile:

ok, solid example… from my setup

  • Main Audio Interface : UMC 1820 → Speakers/Headphones
  • Modular Audio Interface : Percussa SSP e.g. for you ES9
  • DAW : Ableton Live

Scenario:

  • Live is main clock
  • live is being used to supply an ambient tracks, so some samples and polyphonic pads.
  • eurorack modular has sequencer trigger some samples (lets say percussion)
  • vcv patch has its own sequencer, which is triggering a bass voice.
  • I want everything to be (broadly) in sync.

important note: as above, theres many ways I can do this, but this is a simple example.

ableton live

Live audio preferences : audio UMC1820

  • Live : Midi Track 1 : pads from a vst running from a clip
  • Live : Midi Track 2 : some live samples trigger via a clip
  • Live : Midi Track 3 : VCV Rack Pro vst

VCV Rack Pro (VST) :

  • audio device 1 (stereo) : DAW
  • mixer (stmix) → audio device 1 : input 1 & 2
  • midi clock ( from daw) , uses seq3 into base voice , sends audio to stmix (1)
  • audio device 2 (16) : Core Audio / Percussa SSP.
  • Clock (from daw) → audio device 2 : input 1
  • Audio device 2 : output 1 & 2 → stmix (2) (so , indirectly to audio device 1)

eurorack:

  • SSP → output 1 = clock → seq
  • seq - > eurorack drums (audio) → SSP input 1/2 (and so back to vcv)

thats it… basically, we use can do what we like in vcv and send audio back to live. and send/receive cv/audio to eurorack via ssp

latency note… latency is a real world issue, esp with digital hardware/software. depending on music style/genre, you will need to use consider latency compensation, but thats a whole different discussion :laughing:

variation/observation

ofc., I have an output module in my eurorack, so I could send audio directly back to the UMC1820, which I can then get into Live… so thats an option. (if I did do this, then I would need an audio track to get this audio input… but above I do not need!)

however, doing via the SSP means I have more channels available (its 16/16), and also importantly it means my VCV patch gets the audio … so I could add fx etc there. (also my SSP could send back CV as well as audio)

i.e. in this example the limitation is … VCV (vst) cannot access my audio interface (UMC1820) directly, if it wants IO from the UMC1820 this has to be done via Live, as it’s the one using the audio interface.

as said, in OP , there are other approaches/variations, its quite flexible (esp. on macOS) though, hopefully if you try it one way, then you’ll probably understand the others too.

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Hey thanks again for the in depth description - I’m still having trouble on this so maybe I should clarify my situation a little bit more. Given the time you have invested in helping me understand this I would welcome a video call if we can manage that as well? Here’s my setup: I have a eurorack system that sends audio out through the ES-9 - this is the only physical audio device I want to use in my setup. I have this set up as my sole ableton audio device to receive up to 14 channels, and it outputs ch1/2 to monitors and ch3/4 speakers. The ES-9 also has 8 additional output channels (set to default as ch9-16) which I would like to utilise for additional gates / clocks / audio signals from VCV rack. In some cases, I would also like to take audio/cv signal from the ES-9 and feed it into VCV rack (which I show in the video using ch6 output)

Standalone - the above setup works, as I can use same audio device on both Ableton and VCV rack at the same time. The cons is that the integration isnt as tight as the vst version on ableton - I can’t send midi into it from Ableton, and I cant use Ableton as the start/stop trigger for vcv unless Im sending something to it via the ES9 itself.

In vst mode (with Ableton) I cant work out how to send CV out of VCV vst > ch9-16 of the ES9 to use with my hardware. If I change the audio16 module in the vst then it does send and receive as I expect but then I cant hear it (or anything else) through Ableton as the audio devices appear to get conflicted.

I know I can link multiple audio devices using Aggregate device setup in midi/audio tools, but can I separate out the same audio device so some channels (eg 9-16 out, and maybe ch13/14 in) are on one device called something like “ES9 VCV” and another one called “ES9 Ableton” ?

I may still just use standalone and stop paying £22 a month for VCV rack pro subscription - at least I can save some money and just use VCV standalone to send some extra gates and clocks out of the 8 ES9 channels. Better than nothing!

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in this case you must set up the es-9 in the audio preferences as your interace and set the driver as well

btw…Ableton Live + ES-x has been asked many times in this community…have you taken a look?
the problem is that “vanilla” Live is not a multichannel DAW, it only works in stereo. 1 track = 2 channels. period.

I don’t have time now to explain everything in details, but what you are trying should be perfectly achievable.
I say “should” because I don’t have a Mac, but if I can do it in Windows…

the problem is Live’s routing, because ES-9 (I have one) + VCV Rack work fine together.
in Reaper it’s easy AF.

start looking for “Ableton Live ES” (and so on) in this forum.

grab some basic infos here (read all the discussions from the beginning):

for other workarounds look for “Michael G. Wagner spatial audio” on the web :broccoli:

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thanks for this! my searching skills are clearly not up to snuff here so I’ll cry ‘VCV noob’! I’ll check out these resources and see how I get on.

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Have not read the entire tread. Maybe this can help ? There is an ableton project file in the description. I use ES9 with bitwig and VCV pro.

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thanks I’ve seen this, but it didnt help, as much as it had sort of half the answers. Got some stuff here to try from the previous post though

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Some multichannel goodies for “max for live” (I don’t own the ES-9 only the ES-3), so I can’t help with specifics.) Maybe you can pick up some ideas / pointers in the included documentation.

" A set of Max for Live devices and example sets that greatly enhance the audio routing capability of Ableton Live."

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This was my answer!! I doubled the ES9 and made 2 versions, and then I could choose one for the VCV plugin for an Audio16 module (ES9 maps ch 1-8 as 9-16 as a default so this module caters for that), and I choose the other for my ableton input/output config.

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thanks for your help, I needed a few days to think this over and I’ve not had much time recently. Now I have some sync isssues, so I’ll work through those!

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thanks for this info - I solved it thanks to something Technobear said in the first post, just took me a few days to get there!