Midi > Gate map wrong?

just bought vcv rack 2 pro, and learning to use vcv drums in bitwig and when mapping the midi to cv, I notice the outputs are off from the map

the outputs for the bottom row of notes (c2, c2#, etc.) are the 1st row of outputs the outputs for the 2nd to bottom row of notes are the 3rd row of outputs the outputs for the 2nd from top row of notes is the 2nd row of outputs top row of notes is 4 row of outputs…

am I doing something wrong to is this a bug?

I noticed in his livestream @Omri_Cohen also said something about it showing the wrong value in that module and that it was really something different, so could very well be a bug. I think you should send it to VCV support.

What Lars is refering to, is that C1 in Ableton is C2 in Rack … C2 in Ableton is C3 in Rack … etc.

But the mapping seems OK to me.

  • In Ableton a sequence plays C2,G#1, E1, C1
  • I have wired these notes in MIDI-GATE to red,yellow,green,blue (1 added to the octave)
  • The sequence is correct for these 4 gates on the scope.

Hi! I’m not so sure it’s a bug, to be honest. It was working like this in V1 as well, and I think it’s just the differences in voltages between Midi and CV. But yeah, if you have C1 in your DAW, it will be C2 in VCV.

You’re right Omri, CV has a much larger range than MIDI and the octave naming is adjusted to fit the (somewhat) useful range of pitch CV.

Looking at the grab the OP posted, is he not just saying that rows 1 and 4 are swapped (while rows 2 and 3 are fine)

And seeing as rows 1 and 4 are 1 octave apart, if they were swapped back, would this not resolve both the OPs issue and Omri’s issue at the same time?

If so then I’d say it is a bug. Perhaps I have misunderstood though.

Edit: No - just tested and rows 2 and 3 are one octave out as well. Its just one octave off through the range. C1 comes out of C2 and so on.

How come? Isn’t that quite weird? Because in MIDI C3 is C3 is C3, so…

But now I’m curious: Is this just in Ableton or all DAW’s? Because I’d say if it’s just in Ableton then it sounds like an Ableton bug, displaying/sending the wrong MIDI note (1 octave off), whereas if it’s all DAWS (MIDI implementations) then it must be a bug in the VCV Rack MIDI-GATE module.

But in this case voltage is not involved. It’s simply the MIDI-GATE module mapping (e.g.) MIDI C3 to an outgoing gate. If the module is receiving C2 over MIDI and interpreting it as C3, then surely that’s a bug?

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I’m inclined to agree.

It would sure make it easier for users if they didn’t have to know/remember to offset by an octave each time.

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Yeah, it would be perfect if it would show the correct value. I remember using Battery in VCV 1 with Host, and it was the same. I had to set the notes an octave up. I thought it was an issue of the VST though.

Could you make a quick test in Bitwig Omri to see if it’s the same? I’m just gonna make a test on my Keystep now…

Bitwig C4

From doepfer A100 page:

“Pay attention that CV is not an absolute but a relative parameter. A certain CV value (e.g. +1.0V) is not assigned to an absolute pitch !”

It’s the same in Bitwig, yes

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Oh, so it’s other Midi as well not just gates? Makes sense actually…

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Is that with Rack Pro as VST in Bitwig? Because then I have a hypothesis…

I just did a test with Standalone Rack Pro, from my Keystep on my Mac with Midi-Monitor and MIDI-CV and MIDI-GATE in Rack, and all the MIDI notes are received correctly in Rack, and the labels on MIDI-GATE work correctly according to what’s received.

So… reading Omri’s report above, and the other’s from DAW’s, my hypothesis/suspician is that it’s when MIDI passes through the VST/host implementation in Rack, that the bug occurs. In other words: The MIDI implementation in Rack is correct but the Host and VST implementation is not. Thoughts?

Yeah, but this is not about transferring voltage (CV). This is purely about transferring via the MIDI protocol. Two entirely different things.

Yeah, that sounds about right. I think Richie is working on both so the Host module and the VST version. Maybe there was something that was copied from the Host to the VST.

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No, that was the standalone Rack 2 Free.

It’s the same in the VST

Hmm… so this was Bitwig transferring MIDI to a Standalone Rack, via LoopMidi, and Rack getting the wrong MIDI notes. Interesting. I wonder if that ruins my hypothesis and there’s more things going on here, because the same thing is working correctly in some circumstances and not in others.

Does LoopMidi have the ability to spy on MIDI traffic? If so it would be interesting to attach it to Bitwig (in your first/standalone case) to verify that Bitwig indeed sends C4.

Also Jens Peter, it would be very interesting if you have a MIDI keyboard, that you could play into the MIDI-CV module in your Rack standalone and see whether it receives the correct MIDI notes.

Could you try and see if it’s also the same error in MIDI-CV for you Omri?

I will check it later and report back.

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Expert opinions differ on what to call the Octaves - that’s all If you google search for midi note’s you will find different answers.

from MIDI.org, midi specification:

from Pitches and octave designations – Open Music Theory

“… the International Standards Organization (ISO) system for register designations. In that system, middle C (the first ledger line above the bass staff or the first ledger line below the treble staff) is C4 . An octave higher than middle C is C5, and an octave lower than middle C is C3.”

But in Ableton and Bitwig - Middle C (aka ISO C4) is MIDI note 72.

Here’s an answer from KMI:

" There are actually multiple MIDI note number to note name conventions — different companies follow different standards. KMI follows the C3=60 paradigm (as does Ableton, Logic, MainStage, and more), while other companies follow the C4=60 paradigm (Native Instruments and others). It’s even possible to run into a C5=60 standard, but that is much more rare.

If all MIDI notes appear to be an octave off, it simply means that there are two different note naming standards involved. it’s only the note number that matters — the name is irrelevant."

Also, more in-depth: Scientific pitch notation - Wikipedia

Yeah, the whole confusion about “middle C” being C3 or C4 is annoying. BUT… “middle C” should IMHO not be a factor here, because if Bitwig (or any other program) says it’s transmitting the MIDI note C4 it should damn well be C4 with no room for confusion. But I’m reaching my limits - @Squinky.Labs I’m sure you would have more expertice here. A certain MIDI note is a certain MIDI note, right?

Ok, now I’m reading the last paragraphs you wrote. That indeed seems like a complete trainwreck, and that actually MIDI note F2 (e.g.) is only F2 if you think it is, and another manufacturer can say “no, it’s actually F3 instead”. If that’s the case… well, what a weird industry, and as I see it, it means that all the MIDI modules in Rack needs a switch/option to switch between middle-c being C3, C4 or C5, otherwise it can never be properly interoperable with the outside world, or rather: Causes massive confusion and support cases.

@Richie any thoughts on this? Would you agree that actually the MIDI modules need a switch like this otherwise confusion+support continues? Because it seems that the most popular DAW’s with Rack users, Ableton and Bitwig, have middle-C=C3 whereas Rack has middle-C=C4, so things will never line up for them.

Good find Jens Peter!

My god what a trainwreck of an industry :slight_smile:

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