Venom Development blog - Latest: New Bounded VCO module (Peter Blasser Bounds/Bounce Oscillation)

[DaveVenom (Dave Benham)]

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and helpful feedback!

@andreya.ek.frisk

The VCA CV amount control tooltip reads -10…10% instead of -100…100

Ugh. I had already fixed this problem for the Detune attenuverter. One might think that would stir me to check all the knobs, but nope I will fix this in the next beta.

@andreya.ek.frisk

The sync button seems broken. I’m getting phase resets even when its turned off.

Thank you! I had been puzzled because I wasn’t noticing differences with the sync enabled or disabled. I managed to verify that the sync was happening when it was enabled, so I fooled myself into thinking all was OK. But I didn’t think to do the negative test. I can reproduce the problem. I haven’t yet figured out where the code is wrong. I think my explicit code to sync is good, so perhaps I have some code elsewhere that is syncing when I don’t expect it to. I need to dig into this.

@andreya.ek.frisk

2, maybe a separate sync input would be better than sharing with the gate (if you widen a little you could maybe even fit the hard and soft ones from VCO Unit/Lab/Sophia).

Perhaps. But VCO Lab and VCO Unit are where I include everything but the kitchen sink. For XM-OP I really want to focus on modulation where the effect is highly dependent on the frequency ratio. This is very much true for FM, PM, RM, and AM. In contrast with hard/soft sync the modulator always determines the fundamental pitch, and the modulated signal simply alters the timbre. So if I do widen and add another column of controls/inputs then I might consider this, but I am not leaning in that direction.

@andreya.ek.frisk

3, A retrig port for the gate would be really valuable IMO.

I always get confused as to the purpose/effect of a Retrig input. Is that what determines whether a trigger in the middle of an envelope causes a retrigger from 0V?

Currently the XM-OP EG will retrigger from the current voltage while in the release stage. I could offer a context menu option to have it retrigger from 0V during the release stage.

A separate Retrigger input could allow retrigger from 0 during any stage. Definitely something to think about. But it is not a high priority for me. Others weighing in could change my mind.

@andreya.ek.frisk

And another idea: In the Surge VCOs which have a feedback control (Sine for example), we’ve done it so that the negative part of the parameter range feeds back the squared value instead of the negative. This makes the positive and negative parts of the feedback control more meaningfully different from one another.

Very interesting idea, and I do like the negative feedback sound with Surge Sine.

The current design for FM and PM feedback does create different negative vs. positive depth results, but it is just not audible when used in isolation. However, I am thinking that it could make an audible difference when the output is then used as a modulator for another XM-OP. Also, squaring the modulator is not intuitive to me, and it lessens the value of the module as an FM/PM teaching tool. I have to think more on this.

@andreya.ek.frisk

You’ve kinda sorta made those kinds of sounds available for AM in particular, since using the absolute value for feedback gives really similar results. But you made that a separate mode which in my humble opinion is a less useful way to do it. Positive and negative FM and PM feedback, while identical-sounding in isolation, can in theory give different results in a matrix setup. The AM and RM modes however output fully identical waves for positive and negative feedback. If it were me (which it’s not of course) I would at least consider doing it this way, perhaps across the board, but definitely for AM and RM.

I’m not sure how that would play out for the XMOD input. Perhaps it would be less advantageous there. If you want them both to be the same, perhaps an RMB menu option to change behavior? IDK. Just a thought.

The depth of RM and AM are inherently different than for FM and PM. For RM and AM it controls the cross fade between modulated and unmodulated signal. I neglected to state that I use the absolute value of the depth for RM and AM, which of course is kind of necessary for the cross fade to work. But you have given me an idea. I could also invert the modulator (either feedback or Xmod) when given a negative depth for RM or AM. I need to test to see how that works out. For the rectified AM mode I could do the inversion after rectifying.

[kwurqx]

@DaveVenom

Functionally I like this enhancement very much. But visually I think it is awkward and cramped.

What do people think? Add the new port, or keep the module as is?

I can see why you would like separate modulation sources for the ‘timbre’ and the ‘time’ dimension. To me, the module might be crammed with ports, knobs and switches. But, the layout is still pretty clear and useable.

If anything, I would like have a modulation sources routed to all parameters (e.g. Feedback, Xmod). But…that would probably require a Surge XT like ‘hidden’ matrix.

On the other hand, there are ‘external’ tools available in VCV Rack with which you can map any modulation source to any parameter…like µMAP

[DaveVenom (Dave Benham)]

@kwurqx

EDIT: I just notice that @andreya.ek.frisk already noticed that Sync was behaving unexpectedly…

Yep. I definitely need to fix this bug.

@kwurqx

I can see why you would like separate modulation sources for the ‘timbre’ and the ‘time’ dimension. To me, the module might be crammed with ports, knobs and switches. But, the layout is still pretty clear and useable.

If anything, I would like have a modulation sources routed to all parameters (e.g. Feedback, Xmod). But…that would probably require a Surge XT like ‘hidden’ matrix.

Yeah, I thought about the Surge “hidden matrix” style, and made a conscious decision not to go down that route. I don’t think it fits with the design philosophy behind the rest of my plugin.

@kwurqx

On the other hand, there are ‘external’ tools available in VCV Rack with which you can map any modulation source to any parameter…like µMAP

Precisely! That is one of the main reasons why adding more CV inputs is not a high priority.

The more I look at my proposed enhancement, the more I hate the look of it. So I am currently leaning to keeping the layout as is. I think it is a good balance of flexibility, usability, size, and complexity.

[cubistguitar]

Would you consider a right click to make this an 8 ch poly port that spreads over the 4 stages, 3 times, and curve?

just here to poke the bear

[DaveVenom (Dave Benham)]

Chuckle…

Interesting idea, but no, I don’t think I will do that.

[cubistguitar]

Darn, oh well it will still be fun the way you designed it

[cubistguitar]

Then maybe consider a big honking 3 op module with a crazy internal modulation matrix already prepatched for a host of algos, and a randomizer with exclusions. Or not, either way.

[andreya.ek.frisk]

Perhaps. But VCO Lab and VCO Unit are where I include everything but the kitchen sink etc etc

Totally fair. I’m not attached to hard and soft sync options at all. I do find it a little problematic to always reset on new gate though. It means you always get a nasty reset click when a new note plays during the release. I would personally much rather have the button be a sync input, so I could choose to only sync up phases when coming from silence but let them flow while the sound is heard.

I always get confused as to the purpose/effect of a Retrig input. Is that what determines whether a trigger in the middle of an envelope causes a retrigger from 0V?

No it’s just to restart the envelope (from current value) during the sustain stage. Really it’s a shorthand for closing and reopening the gate. DocB Eva has this for example and it is super useful.

My main use case for this is keyboard playing with a sustain pedal (in “reuse” voice mode), but it’s also really cool to retrig a percussive envelope on an ongoing bass note. Etc etc. Plenty other cases too I’m sure. Admittedly this is mostly a convenience to avoid the need to mess with the gate signal. And as you don’t want to grow your faceplate I don’t really see where it would fit in. So never mind this one.

[andreya.ek.frisk]

@DaveVenom

The current design for FM and PM feedback does create different negative vs. positive depth results, but it is just not audible when used in isolation.etc etc

Yeah like I said I notice that and indeed it could make a difference in context. If you don’t wanna use the positive and negative param range, maybe you could offer “PM Squared” as a mode? I don’t know how well that trick works for FM (worth a try probably). But for sure with PM you get that nice square-ish sound which Surge Sine gives with “negative” feedback. Would be nice to access that for sure.

But you have given me an idea. etc etc

Nice. I’m sure there’s a way to get the positive and negative ranges of these to at least be symmetrically different also like the frequency ones are.

[DaveVenom (Dave Benham)]

@andreya.ek.frisk

If you don’t wanna use the positive and negative param range, maybe you could offer “PM Squared” as a mode? I don’t know how well that trick works for FM (worth a try probably). But for sure with PM you get that nice square-ish sound which Surge Sine gives with “negative” feedback. Would be nice to access that for sure.

I will keep that in mind. Even if not in the initial release, it can always be added later.

I already have an additional FM mode in mind. Currently the FM is always AC coupled (via a high pass filter with a very low cutoff). This can make a huge difference to the result. Initially my FM was DC coupled, and the FM feedback was drastically affecting the pitch. Adding the HP filter instantly solved the problem, and now the pitch is fairly constant, with a bit of interesting wow and flutter as the feedback depth is modulated.

I am thinking of adding an FM DC coupled mode, but this is another idea that is not high priority.

[andreya.ek.frisk]

Yup that all sounds good.

Played with it some more (also with Sophias Daughter which I’m still just in love with). And really the most important thing is that phase reset I think. Not being able to get rid of those clicks (or, if it worked as intended, needing to forfeit phase sync to avoid them) is for sure the thing that feels most unfinished. The modulation I think is fine as is, there’s so many great sounds etc etc. This is gonna be another winner.

[DaveVenom (Dave Benham)]

@cubistguitar

Then maybe consider a big honking 3 op module with a crazy internal modulation matrix already prepatched for a host of algos, and a randomizer with exclusions. Or not, either way.

Sigh…

That was on my radar at one point. I was actually thinking of a 4 or 6 op module. I have since soured a bit on this one.

We already have Valley Dexter

Valley Dexter

And Paul Bacon has recently released the Six Sines synth plugin that I think can be run within Host.

GitHub - baconpaul/six-sines: That's the right number of sines, I think.

I am not sure I want to enter this space at the moment. Maybe @baconpaul could be convinced to put Six Sines in a dedicated VCV module?!

Perhaps someday I will try to create my own take on a 4 or 6 op FM synth, but definitely not soon.

[DaveVenom (Dave Benham)]

@andreya.ek.frisk

the most important thing is that phase reset I think.

I should be able to figure this one out.

@andreya.ek.frisk

also (played) with Sophias Daughter which I’m still just in love with

Wonderful! I would love to see some examples of what you are doing!

BTW, what platform(s) do you run on? PC, Mac, Linux ?

[andreya.ek.frisk]

That makes sense to me for what it’s worth. Main appeal of using rack for this kind of thing is… well as I’m typing this out I’m realizing how obnoxiously I’m about to state the obvious haha. Anyway…

[andreya.ek.frisk]

Tonight, mostly feeding really vowel-y basses into the CF100 filter. Super fun… I’ll see if I can share some stuff tomorrow maybe. I’m on Mac.

[cubistguitar]

I was trying to pull your chain anyway, the fun of a good operator is making your own wacky patched up algo.

The next horizon is Venom delays and filters in advance of the amazing Venom drums suite. Lol.

[DaveVenom (Dave Benham)]

Delays - I’m not too interested in doing that.

Filters - I would love to tackle this. Omri has asked me to explore this domain a few times. I just don’t have enough DSP knowledge yet to attempt this. But there are some commercial modules I would like to create where this knowledge will be necessary. So I might get there eventually.

Drums - Oooh, I do like percussion. You might be surprised given how few of my posted patches use drums, but I do play djembe in addition to flutes.

I would never do anything sample based (it just isn’t my thing). However, I love the VCV Drums developed by @modlfo. I have also done a few patches where I synthesize drum sounds from stock VCV modules, and had a lot of fun.

I haven’t any drum module development plans now, but you have planted a seed . . .

[gkillmaster]

I would say add the new port. It doesn’t look awkward or cramped to me.

[DaveVenom (Dave Benham)]

I wish I felt the same. I have grown to hate the look with the added port. So as of now I plan to keep it as is.

But it is not too late for a bunch of people to say they really want the new port, and convince me to reconsider.

[auxmux]

Don’t see an issue with the additional port if I’m imagining it right.